Father Stephen P. Norton, pastor of St. Benedict’s Church in the Bronx , gave a wide-ranging interview on January 22, 2012, on a variety of issues of concern to Catholics, including the state of Catholic parishes and schools.
Q. Can you tell me a little bit about your school and what the student attendance is?
A. It's about 300 students that occupy the school. There are a neighboring three other parishes with schools attached to them. But our school physically has about 300 kids. In the heyday, years and years ago, of course there were many more than 300. In fact, the physical building itself could house more than 300, but we have 300 now.
Q. In speaking with some other parishes, they've been taking in children from other areas where the schools have been closed. What are your thoughts?
A. Well, yes, anytime that that happens, the hope is always that the other schools will be able to embrace those kids. In fact, it is the truth that the archdiocese was looking at, in the past, and have looked at, the closing of schools. OK, what other schools are around them? Can other Catholic schools embrace these kids? And, if so, now let's start getting serious about closing it. But that's always the priority, to make sure that those children who are in a Catholic school, even if that school is closing, are able to go to another Catholic school in a geographical area.
Q. Obviously the schools are all suffering from financial difficulties. What are the schools doing to raise money and to increase enrollment?
A. You know, for so many years, in a different time, for example, when I was a kid, 90% or 80% of staff were religious women who didn't need to have the budgets, financial budgets that you would today where we're now embracing a full staff of lay people who need to make a living. I think we're finally beginning to look at how do we make sure that this Catholic school, Catholic schools in general, move forward into the future and one of those things that has to happen is fundraising. Now I don't mean fundraising that happens – a cupcake sale. It's sweet and it's in front of them maybe, but it's not going to keep the school financially moving forward so we have to start looking at another way. Universities and colleges did it many, many years ago. High schools have embraced it with great relish over these last ten, fifteen, twenty years.
Elementary schools have to begin to look at development in alumni relations and being able to ask people to support Catholic education in their area, or if not in their geographical area where they live anymore, at least where they went and so forth.
Q. Things are getting a lot more sophisticated at this level. As you said, traditionally it used to be like selling cupcakes. Now schools are moving toward things like golf outings and things like that or to enlist the aid of businesses.
A. We have to do things that are going to sustain the future of this institution. Now here in the archdiocese, we're beginning to do a regionalization project. Now, to be honest with you, I think the regionalization project is in the very early stages so we still have to do some tightening up of the process. That being said, the idea and the process itself is a good one. Why? Because in some sense, it is going to mean the demise of some Catholic schools, but it's also going to mean, I believe, if it's done correctly, and done well, and embraced by the priest and the Catholic educators in the system now, it's going to mean the strengthening of the Catholic institutions overall, the Catholic schools overall.
Q. I know what my mom used to tell me; she and her sisters were in Catholic schools. She said that back in their day, everybody, if you were Catholic, you went to Catholic school. It was sort of viewed as a duty. The family would do what it had to do to get the child to attend Catholic schools. Archbishop Dolan has been a very big supporter of the Catholic schools. How much influence do you think he has in terms of convincing families of their obligation to send their children to Catholic school?
A. You know, I'm going to step out on a limb here a little bit and say to you that I don't know that this is true or not true. I would think that many Catholic parents would like to send their children to Catholic school. Tuition-wise, that goes out of reach for a lot of people. That's just the reality of it. Again, when I was in school, it was staffed by a majority of religious who didn't get the paycheck and didn't get paid in the same level that lay people do today. Lay people are trying to support their families. They should be justly paid for the work that they do. That's why I think that if we tighten up the system a bit and there's fewer, then we begin to look at areas. We can look at schools and say OK, this school is in a good enough area of New York or wherever in the country it is, and be able to say, OK we can charge [this amount] of tuition here and maybe a lower tuition here because we can offset it, we can off-balance it. It's not an unyielding system, it's a tighter system. I hope we will do that. So it sort of asks the archbishop: how do you take blood out of a stone? How do you make parents who are struggling in a difficult financial economy to hand over dollar after dollar for Catholic education? As much as they would like to, I believe. So I think we have to look at the whole system and how it, as a system, can move forward and that's going to mean, again, an embracing of Catholic families and encouraging them to bring their children to Catholic schools, but also to keep it in line with the affordability of Catholic schools.
Q. Catholic schools, in terms of sharing in state aid, it's funny because the view in this country is dramatically changed. When the Constitution was first adopted, separation of church and state, states were still subsidizing parochial schools or even allowing religion. For instance, the state of Massachusetts
A. Well, let me say that should always be and would always be a concern, that government would try to curtail or control in any way any religious institution because they were financially supporting it. But I think that, although it would certainly benefit Catholic schools, it is my understanding that the voucher system is not really a Catholic school, parochial school support of the government. It's giving parents the “X” amount of dollars it costs to educate their child, money of which they're normally placing into a system, the public school system, and giving the parents the choice to say, "I've chosen to take my ‘X’ amount of thousands of dollars that I can write off on my taxes that I can get from government subsidy and apply that subsidy to the school of my choice," whether that be a Congregational school, or a Protestant school, whether it's a Baptist school, a Catholic school or back within a charter school or back into public education, the general public educational school system. So It gives the parents that choice to be able to say I want to be able to do “a, b or c” with my money, with the money that you're giving me. I think this is a very, very deeply debated question within the Catholic school system and within the Catholic Church at large and that is, when we're in a particular neighborhood, are we there to serve Catholic children and only Catholic children, or are we there to serve whoever happens to knock on our door regardless of their faith? Then the question comes, well if I'm being given by the government “X” amount of dollars to apply to whatever school I want to apply to, and I'm non-Catholic and I decide to go to a Catholic school, how many non-Catholic children do we take before I now maintain my identity as a Catholic school and now what does the government say when you have 60% of kids in your school, as an example, who are not Catholic of which we're supporting? Now we're in a different question. Now we're in a different debate. I don't know the answer to that but I do believe that if it's a Catholic school, they should have Catholic kids in it and if we're going to embrace some other kind of model, well then that's great too, but it's not a Catholic school anymore.
Q. Regardless of this gap between public schools which seem to have unlimited access to public monies, and the rather tight budgets of the parochial schools, academically the Catholic schools have been outperforming in New York the public schools by tremendous gaps as well. What do you attribute this great success to? I know some members of the United Federation of Teachers have protested and said well, it's really easy for the Catholic schools, especially when they have the ability to expel students who may be posing a challenge or a disciplinary problem, where they say at the public school they have to still deal with this. Now it's interesting, in speaking with some parish priests, I've found that that's not always the case, that they do deal with some hard cases and try to make it work. Can you elaborate on that a little?
A. I'm not 100% convinced that the public school system at large has this unlimited amount of money that they're just able to throw into a system. I think there are probably a lot of public school teachers who would disagree with that as a concept. Now, is there waste? Perhaps. I don't know. I'm not integrally involved in it but anytime you get into any large system, that's always a problem and a possibility of having wasteful money spent. That being all said, why does it seem that the Catholic school system does a better job? Public school system has a really tough job and it's when we approach things as human beings, when we see it as "free" we don't have the appreciation or attachment to whatever that is because it's "free". So as this free system, this public school system, perhaps we're not seeing it as valuable now, as a society, because it's "free." People who have spent “X” amount of dollars to send their kids to school are going to simply, because they've spent a lot of money, turn around to these children and say, “You're going to study because I'm going to spend thousands of dollars to make sure you're in this school as opposed to in “Y” school. I think a lot of it comes down to the parents involved, based on the tuition, that they're turning around and saying we're putting out our good money and therefore we're expecting more of our child expecting us to keep on our child, to motivate our child. Again, please understand, I'm not saying that parents of public school kids are not concerned for their child and are not pushing their children to succeed as well as they possible can, but you can understand how if I've spent $3,000 a year for this education, as opposed to zero dollars per year for education, I'm going to be a little more involved and a little more motivated to make sure I'm getting my $3,000 worth of education. I think that that has to play a piece in this whole discussion or argument. I know some public school teachers and I don't pretend to know a lot of them or pretend to have an integral knowledge of the system, but I know that they're working hard and they're doing the best they can, sometimes under tight budgets because of what the mayor of New York City is trying to pull in and rightly so. I mean we can't just keep spending, spending, spending. It's tough all the way around but, like anything, I don't care if I'm dirt poor and I've got to try to buy a piece of furniture, a chair for my poor apartment, if I spend $5 on the chair at the Salvation Army, it's somehow more appreciated, more valued because it cost $5, as opposed to getting the chair [free]. I think the same thing has applied to education.
Q. The parents have a big investment in it and they're looking out for their investment, as you say, versus the free lunch argument that if somebody's getting something for nothing, well, you don't value that as much.
A. Exactly. I get free lunch I can throw that lunch away; it's free, instead of wait a minute, someone's paying for this. In the public school system, someone's paying these teachers. In this Catholic school, in the parochial school system, I'm chomping down thousands of dollars, I want to make sure I'm getting my money's worth. That's for anything that we're buying.
Q. Father, you had mentioned before, in terms of non-Catholic students coming into the schools, what's impressed me is the amount of diversity that exists in parochial schools. I talk to people and a lot of times their thing is that the Catholic schools in New York
A. I can comment to you only on this level. I think that within Ccatholic circles, both educationally and church-wide, that question of are Catholic schools only for Catholic kids, or how do we embrace non-Catholic kids in our schools and what does that mean? That's a question that is talked about, shared about and preached, and there are people at both ends of that spectrum. Here at St. Benedict's in the Bronx where I am, this neighborhood is still very much an Irish, Italian enclave holdover. However, the Spanish community is beginning to move in especially as the Italian community begins to fade away. The Spanish community gets to grow so the Spanish community also is very much a Catholic population. But I think a very different mentality than it was years ago of my Irish grandparents and great grandparents, the Italians who came over here on a boat, the Polish and the Germans of old, who came over here with nothing, maybe one bag, maybe lives with the brother, that tough turn of the century mentality, it's not so much anymore, right? They're not traveling weeks and days on a boat and perhaps getting sick and some dying or possibly being turned away because of disease. That has a very different feel to it so they kind of come with a whole different attitude. They just come with a different feeling so we have to embrace a different mentality as a church to say, this is a new population coming in, Hispanics coming in from various Spanish- speaking countries with a different ideal and mentality than the Polish and Germans, Italians and Irish from yesteryear so it's an ongoing question. I think it's a question that deserves our prayer and our discussion.
Q. One of the more extreme cases I've heard, especially up in the Bronx , there seemed to be a sizeable Albanian Muslim population and even among black Protestants who've sought out parochial schools as a refuge for their children, the Catholic schools have been open to them and have brought them in. They are still required to take Catholic education. I assumed there was some type of religious education that's required but they actually take Catholic studies which I wasn't aware of and I think most people aren't. I've been told by some of the parish priests that there hasn't been any type of backlash or any type of conflict or anything like that. It's been working out rather nicely.
A. Again, I think this question you can find sides on both ends of the question. I think we have to stop as a church, and especially as an American church, and a church certainly universal from my humble estimation, we have to stop apologizing for who we are as Catholics. We have to embrace everybody and make sure everyone feels accepted and welcome into our church, and hopefully, they do. But at the same time, I'm not going to make apologies for the fact that we require Catholic activities to happen for our children, meaning they come over to confession on a regular basis, they come over for Mass at least monthly, if not more often than that. They begin everything with a prayer, a crucifix is still in the building. I'm not going to apologize for that because this is who we are. This is our faith and one of the blessings I hope that this regionalization process, that the archbishop and Bishop Sullivan, who is our vicar general, is really focused on – trying to make sure that we're beginning to regionalize schools. I think the blessing is going to be exactly what we're talking about right now, making our Catholic schools proud in being Catholic schools. So I want to embrace people of non-Catholic faith and respect who they are and respect their faith whether they're Jewish, whether they're Muslim, whether they're Protestant or anything else. I want to respect that but a) I expect to get respect in my belief and my faith, and b) I'm not going to apologize for being a good, solid Catholic school or Catholic institution in any way. Recently, as you know, President Obama has called Archbishop Dolan to tell him that he was putting into law that every institution, regardless of religious affiliation, must offer insurance for abortions and contraceptive activities, against our consciences, against who we are in our faith, one of our core beliefs. That, needless to say, has caused the archbishop to be very upset and the Catholic community with him, and should be. You're not going to come into a Catholic school, for example, and say that I have to turn to my Catholic teachers and say, if you want to have an abortion you can. That's crazy.
Q .There's even been pressure upon Catholic hospitals to provide those type of services. So much for so-called freedom of religion. It has been used as a tool, I think, against religions.
A. I absolutely agree. You're exactly right. So there's a lot going on. You got me on one of my favorite subjects.
Q. This past summer, there was some controversy in the papers. There was a Bronx Catholic school principal, Frank Borzellieri, who was fired by the archdiocese because of past writings on racial matters. Mr. Borzellieri stated that “diversity is a weakness” and that increasing numbers of blacks and Hispanics will bring a “new dark age” to America
A. I happen to know the pastor rather well of that parish. I picked up the phone and called him and said, you know anytime any controversy it affects us as the priests. I told him I was praying for him. My superiors have looked into this and they're the ones who've made this statement and I want to support that because they would have had a wider, bigger picture. You know, as a leader of a parish, sometimes I'm making a statement or I'm doing something and people will grouse about it or complain about it but they don't have the whole thing. While I've had the ability to be able to look at a wide picture and I'm going to assume that in this scenario, as in many scenarios, and that's the truth – so I would comment only to say that I would support their decision.
Q. But, the idea that diversity is a weakness. I've spoken to folks in the religious community, but that is a view, I mean the country is divided on that. There are people who say, that's our strength, it's always been our strength and there are people who say, if you're going to Balkanize America America or in England
A. I think you're right. People came into America
Q. One thing I'm encouraged about in talking to various pastors, they're not taking a gloomy view of parochial schools. You read some newspaper articles or hear some commentary on TV or the radio and it's as if we're in the death days of parochial education and it’s going to become a thing of the past. I've been hearing some very hopeful and encouraging sounds there. You're talking about the regionalization to save the schools. It seems too, talking to lay people, a lot of people are hoping that parochial schools hold their ground because it's a refuge for them to send their children to get a traditional education. Several years back they had something they were pushing in New York
A. I don't think we should or could go back to a mentality that says I'm going to wall myself in so that I'm not hurt or attacked by "the evil world out there". The thing about our life and our society today is that we do embrace so many differences and so many varieties. Again, we don't want to apologize for who we are, but at the same time, we don't want to ignore the excitement in the world that our kids are going to embrace.
Q. Than you very much, Father. It’s been a very interesting interview.
A. I appreciate your kindness in calling me.
